I haven't read the whole book yet, so forgive me if you've covered this, but I mad the switch to organic dairy about 3 years ago, and with few exceptions have stuck to that. I was wondering if there was value in continuing with it, if it was a healthier choice, or what your thoughts about organic are? My consumption is about a quart of 1% milk a week, a stick of butter, and a splash or two of cream in my daily cup of organic coffee. Thanks!

Read this:

http://www.askmyacupuncturist.com/askmyacupuncturist/Dairy_Foods.html

http://www.notmilk.com/

If you use organic milk it will not have the hormones and antibiotics plus the animals will have a little bit better life, but the health risk cost by using dairy products will still be bad.

Grown-ups are not made for consuming milk especially that of other spicies...

Alicia explains it well in the book, as also in Hip chicks guide to macrobiotics (by Jessica Porter).

Explore and make your own discision. :)))

Usually organic just means free of chemicals, antibiotics, etc.  This has NOTHING to do with animal treatment.  Dairy farms are the worst, and if nothing else, the male calves are taken away for veal.  This is enough for me!

Dairy has no health benefits at all whatsover, and the industry is cruel, even on an organic farm. Think about being pregnant practically your whole life, and having all of your male children taken away for veal right away. All mammals like to care for their young. These dairy cows are basically slaves, and they serve no health benefits. Now with meat, you can actually say that it has SOME health benefits, although the negatives definitely outweigh the positives, but dairy is basically poisin to our bodies, the cows, and the environment.

This might seem a little mean but I am going to give a little tough love. Just because we were fed whatever all our lives while growing up and society consumes something doesn't mean we have to continue the madness. I read week after week posters trying to hold on to dairy, it's like trying to hold on to DRUGS. You read the book, there are tons of books on this,  tons of studies, we could go on and on, if you want to move towards a plant based diet  JUST STOP USING DAIRY, and NOW. Once your body gets over the addiction it will be fine.

I's for baby cows, and we are not cows, and you are contributing to veal industry by consuming it. Cheese also is rarely vegetarian. It has rennet in it, which comes from the stomachs of slaughtered cows. So unless you buy it made with vege rennet it's not even vegetarian.  No restuarant (unless vege) is going to serve vege rennet either so you are consuming mashed up stomach guts. Also dairy has tons of pus. This girl I worked with said they had milk that went bad on vacation and it has seperated and it looked like pus with blood in it.

DO YOU STILL WANT DAIRY even if ORGANIC?

There are so many great options, try them, you will love them once you kick DAIRY for good.

Maly,

Read Alicia's chapter on Dairy.  It's crack.  It's addictive.  It's carcinogenic.  And there is no such thing as safe dairy.  Sarah M. is right...to get milk (organic and otherwise) the cows have to be kept pregnant.  Maybe there are no ADDED hormones but there is one that is inherent to cow's milk called IGF (Insulin Growth Factor) and it is intended to grow big fat cows.  So it also makes big fat people.  Dairy has be shown to be connected to breast cancer, prostate cancer, diabetes, heart disease...etc, etc. etc.

A book I can recommend is call The China Syndrome By T. Colin Campbell, and he recommends that if you can only eliminate one thing, he says take out dairy.  

I totally agree with you guys about the evils of dairy-I never liked cow's milk, yogurt and cheese were hard for me to get rid of at first. But I can't convince anyone in my family of what I know, as they are all avid meat-and-dairy-eaters. They think all the stuff about meat and dairy being bad for you is just a liberal agenda. I'm not liberal, but I still believe in being vegan. What could I say to them?

Zoe,

Tell them it's not liberal agenda...it's advertising, not the truth.  It's what they want you to believe, because it's their job to sell their stuff.  The meat and dairy industries have HUGE money and they can spend lots of it making us think it's good for us.  And their lobbyists are hard at work in congress making sure that their jobs are secure...does anyone do that for your job? Do you think they are going to tell us all the bad stuff?  NOT!  Cow's milk is meant for cows.  Or put it to them this way...would you drink the mammary fluid (breast milk) of another human being?  Why is it ok to keep a cow pregnant and drink the infected milk meant for the calves that were torn away from her at birth.  And there are plenty of studies out there showing milks connection to various chronic diseases.

As for meat, why not just eat the pet dog?  Why is it ok to kill a steer, or pig, or chicken to eat, but not your dog?  It's meat isn't it?

See, my opinion is that people do not respond to those tactics - in fact, I think it is very counterproductive. I know it can be tempting to regale terrible tales from the dairy and meat farms but in reality it will most probably confound their notions that Vegans are hippie quacks. Okay, the gently gently approach can be frustrating too but for me it's leading by example rather than shoving the reality in their face when they are not ready or willing to accept it.

I seem to moving two steps forwards and five steps back with my family at the minute but there are little glimmers of hope and this is from me just cooking vegan meals, looking better, feeling better etc. My parents aren't stupid, they know full well the pitfalls of their diets but I also know if I were to start on about factory farming they would have some excuse or reasoning for why it is a necessary evil or the fact that things aren't as bad in Ireland as they are in the rest of the world.

We have to understand that people, particularly parents are going to be a little defensive - after all they brought us up on a diet of meat and dairy. No-one wants to think they've done a poor parenting job (which mine most certainly haven't) so it's understandable they're going to stand by their ingrained principles. I know all this and still I get worked up but it doesn't make me want to chastise either of my parents for their eating habits. Completely organically through a discussion we were having I told my Mum the connection between the dairy industry and veal - she was horrified. She's now incorporating green tea into her diet in order to lessen her tea/coffee (both of which she has with milk) - it's a small thing but it's also significant in some ways.

I'd be curious to hear if anyone has taken the hard tack with an omnivore (i.e. laid it all out, no holds barred, if you know what I mean?) and what their reaction was?

Having inadvertantly erased my response twice, I shall now craft a shorter response.

I consume 1/8 the meat and fish, 1/5 the dairy, 5 times, the whole grains, and 3-4 times the produce of the average american. Not certain of the proportion of packaged foods, but know it is significantly less. The majority of my food dollars go to local and/ or organic sources. Ten percent of my food dollars go to meat, fish, poultry or dairy, all of which is locally and organically sourced. I know if my diet became the Standard American Diet. If my proportions and sources became the average, factory farms could not exist, landfills would be substantially smaller.

Being compared to an addict was both abrasive and unnecessary. Unfortunately with the court lifting the ban on GE Alfalfa, Organic Dairy Standards will mean close to nothing, and the small family local farms who treat their livestock with such love from which I buy my dairy will likely go under. This deeply saddens me. I loved and appreciated responses by Axa Axa and just now by Aine. Because of their kindness and energy, I will continue to come to the kind life. But this will likely be my last post.

I still believe that less is more. And that source is important. But I guess some of you feel that it's all (vegan) immediately or my choices mean nothing. For those who are on a path of reduced consumption, Mark Bittman has an interesting idea. He's vegan until six. If everyone did that, national dairy and meat consumption would decrease by 70 percent. 70 percent. So given this was orginally posted in the flirts ask Alicia section, I ask, is there room for us at your table? Those of us who wish to decrease consumption, those of us who want sustainable and thoughtful farming traditions to return to our agricultural landscape. Is there room for us as well?

Maly-

I apologize if my post upset you it was not my intent. I was being truthful about how I felt about dairy as it is a frrequent topic raised a lot on these boards. I have been sitting back and saying very little but today I was trying to inspire the group. I was raised on dairy and meat and didn't discover this way until I was past 40. If you are asking the question if organic dairy is ok you have to know these boards are a mix of vegans and flirts, so pretty much the vegans are going to tell you how we see it. If you don't want to be 100% that's up to you. I appreciate that your percentages work for you, in your life, your ideals and priorities. For me  personally I feel 100% better without it. I used to be sick all the time, colds, bronchitis, acid reflux, allergies, etc, and now it's like hardly ever.  Perhaps you don't have these issues. As for if the dairy farmers go out of business, well I guess truthfully I fam hoping they will reinvent themselves and grow vegan friendly crops.

Best of luck to you and Happy 4th of July to everyone!

I'd say look at all the inforamtion you're getting and reading a lot about everything, than make your own opinion. Another suggestion could be that you decide to try to go without dairy.vegan for 30 days anddecide after that (feel how you feel with out it) how you want proceed.

Good luck and please ask eveything you want to know. People will give you all kinds of information, see what rings true with you, take what what suits you and do what is best for you at this time!

It took me 20 years to go from vegetarian to vegan and eating mostly organic. I think this voyage is personal and I think its great you consume with conscious and responsibility, i wish everyone would do that! :)

Love, axa

I think we would all agree that eating less meat/dairy is better than nothing. But the question being is organic a better/healthier choice - the short answer is no, for reasons already mentioned (reread TKD dairy section, as well as The China Study and Eating Animals).

I do think cheryl has a point, I don't think she was trying to be outright hurtful, but pointing out the fact that so many people do have problems with giving up dairy and cheese because of the addictive casein in it. If you (meaning those in general who are struggling to give it up) don't give it up, of course you're going to continue to want it because each time you eat it, the addictive pathways in your brain are reactivated, you're not giving your brain and body a chance to detox from the casein.

That being said, if your goal is to be a flirt, and you're pleased with the health results you have, and the impact you feel you have on the world around you, then that is miles ahead of most people, which is to be applauded. Vegans will obviously always encourage giving up all animal products. It can sometimes be difficult to balance the desire to gently support someone in their journey and the passion to share what you know, through research and experience, and believe about a plant-based lifestyle, vegetarianism, veganism, macro, superhero, whatever label we each might fall under. 

maly,

i love flirts!

please come back.

im so happy you are asking these ?'s and considering your choices.

thank you for caring and thinking about what you are doing.....

and i do hope you will continue to finish the kind diet book...as i think you will really love it...

and all flirts are not only welcome here but i truly want them here.....

so please plaese come back and play! and post!

sending you love

alicia

Thank you Alicia! And Axa! For the kindness and encouragement. I will continue reading, learning and growing.

In case I become vegan some day or wander away from conscious consumption, here for all tkl to see is my current maximum weekly consumption of meat and dairy. It is often less.

4 oz meat, organic or local from my uncle's small farm

4 oz poultry, organic

1 quart 1% milk

1 cup cream

3 organic cage free eggs

2 slices organic cheese or 1/2 pint of ice cream

Thanks again for the love and answers!